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-   -   Vitamin K-2 (http://forums.marrowforums.org/showthread.php?t=3142)

lfeinsmith Tue Sep 4, 2012 09:14 PM

Vitamin K-2
 
Recently I read that Japanese researchers found that by using Vitamin K-2 50MCG and Vitamin D3 2000 units /day in subgroup of MDS Intermediate risk 1
was 30% effective in increasing platelet count .I started using it 2 weeks ago and my platelet count went from 29000 to 45000.That is the highest since 2010
Ill report further developments.

Les

tom30 Tue Sep 4, 2012 10:13 PM

This may be what Les is referencing, Les, please post your progress.

http://www.mdsbeacon.com/news/2010/0...-mds-patients/

Vitamin K2 And Vitamin D3 Combination Therapy May Increase Red Blood Cell and Platelet Counts In Low-Risk MDS Patients
2 Comments By Nina Duong
Published: Jul 19, 2010 12:04 pm
Vitamin K2 And Vitamin D3 Combination Therapy May Increase Red Blood Cell and Platelet Counts In Low-Risk MDS Patients

For patients with low-risk myelodysplastic syndromes (MDS), a combination therapy of vitamins K2 and D3 may improve low red blood cell and low platelet counts, according to a Phase 2 clinical trial conducted by Japanese researchers and published in the journal Leukemia Research.

While treatment options exist for low-risk MDS patients, such as Revlimid (lenalidomide), Vidaza (azacitidine), and Dacogen (decitabine), patients are not always responsive to such therapies. Researchers, therefore, are always looking for treatment alternatives.

The Japanese researchers explored vitamins K2 and D3 as alternative treatment options for low-risk, elderly MDS patients.

Previous reports have shown that vitamin K2 treatment can improve blood cell counts. Vitamins related to D3 have also demonstrated therapeutic effects. Vitamin D3 may enhance the effects of vitamin K2.

The researchers divided the study into two phases: an initial treatment regimen of only vitamin K2, followed by a combination therapy of vitamins K2 and D3. For the first part of the study, 38 patients who had not had any form of MDS treatment for four weeks (except transfusions) received 15 mg of vitamin K2 three times a day over the course of 16 weeks. At the end of the treatment course, patients who did not respond started taking a capsule of vitamin D3 along with the vitamin K2 for another 16 weeks.

Researchers found that out of 38 patients, five (13 percent) responded to the vitamin K2 treatment. Of the 24 patients who had low red blood cell counts, four (17 percent) showed improved red blood cell counts after the vitamin K2 treatment. Of the 24 patients with low platelet count, five (21 percent) showed improved platelet counts. The researchers noted that in four patients, both the red blood cell and platelet counts improved at the same time.

Six patients initially required platelet transfusions. After treatment, one of these patients no longer required transfusions. However, none of the 10 patients requiring red blood cell transfusions became transfusion-independent after treatment.

Twenty patients who did not show any improvement in blood cell count continued taking vitamin D3 in addition to the vitamin K2. With this combination therapy, the response rate increased to 30 percent. Forty-five percent of patients experienced improved red blood cell counts, while 30 percent of patients showed improved platelet counts. One patient no longer required red blood cell and platelet transfusions.

Both the vitamin K2 treatment as well as the combination treatment of vitamins K2 and D3 did not have any effect on white blood cell count.

The researchers found that patients who responded to the combination treatment initially had lower red blood cell counts and higher white blood cell counts than patients who did not respond to treatment.

Additionally, the researchers also found that red blood cell counts improved in patients with or without high-risk chromosomal abnormalities, which suggests that chromosomal abnormalities may not affect the efficacy of the combination therapy.

Reports of side effects were very minimal. The side effects themselves, including nausea, stomach pain, and skin rash, were mild.

Based on the response rates and minimal side effects, the researchers concluded that combination therapy with vitamins K2 and VD3 has the potential to increase red blood cell and platelet counts for elderly patients with low-risk MDS.

They added that further studies will be needed to clarify the role of vitamin D3 and to determine how long the effects of the combination therapy last.

Chirley Wed Sep 5, 2012 12:41 AM

This is coincidental. I have just ordered 3 bottles of K2 and am waiting for them to be delivered.

I've been told that my mother has calcification of all her arteries and I did some research and found that K2 has been found to reverse calcification as well as increasing arterial elasticity.

I don't know if Mum is allowed to take it but I intend asking her renal physician if it's okay.

Even if she's not allowed to take it I'll ask my haematologist if it's okay for me to have some.

Sometimes though, when things seem too good to be true, they are.

Regards

Chirley

Lulu Thu Sep 6, 2012 01:42 PM

K2
 
Hi folks
Been lurking on here for a while, replying to this post as I am also taking D3/K2. For several years before I developed anaemia, I had been having frequent spontaneous bleeds on my hands and feet, and bruised very easily. The doctors of course were completely uninterested as the usual blood tests were coming out normal (other than a raised MCV, which they always blamed on alcohol).

Since taking the supplements I have felt stronger, and have not needed as many transfusions as the doctors were anticipating. I am on 30mg K2 and 3000mcg vitamin D (was tested and this was low).

My theory is that my bone marrow problem may be linked to having had severe gut problems for many years - in a healthy person, vitamin K is synthesised mainly by bowel flora, and chronic diarrhoea can knock it out. Again, the doctors are completely uninterested in any of this!

Good luck everyone x

Chirley Thu Sep 6, 2012 08:03 PM

I asked my Mums renal physician whether it was worthwhile starting her on K2. I told him that research showed it rapidly and significantly REVERSED arterial calcification in rats. I told him that I understood that the rats metabolized K2 differently to humans but that it wouldn't hurt to give it a go. He just poo pooed the idea.

I don't know if he thinks that the K2 is contraindicated in renal failure (maybe it's cleared through the kidneys) or whether he is simply resistant to alternative treatments. I'll have to clarify this with him.

He's in for a shock if he thinks I'm going to drop the idea unless he gives me some good reasons not to try.

Regards

Chirley

tom30 Fri Sep 7, 2012 11:19 PM

Les and Lulu, can you say what kind of k2 you are taking? I see there are two different types. Vitamin K2 (menaquinone) includes several subtypes; two subtypes most studied are menaquinone-4 (menatetrenone, MK4) and menaquinone-7 (MK7).

Chirley Sat Sep 8, 2012 01:52 AM

I'd be interested too. I could only access MK4 but I read somewhere that MK7 is more effective.

Chirley

Lulu Sun Sep 9, 2012 05:23 AM

types of K2
 
Hi Tom, Chirley

I am taking menatetrenone (MK4), as this is what was used in the Japanese research. I started on this stuff from Thorne Research http://www.thorne.com/Products/Vitamins/prd~K170.jsp . Now on tablets http://www.yourhealthbasket.co.uk/in...t_detail&p=664

From what I understand, MK7 is synthesised from gut bacteria, I have just started taking an industrial-strength probiotic called VSL3, which (theoretically, anyhow) should boost MK7.

Unfortunately I am on so many supplements it is hard to tell what is/isn't working, and it is all rather expensive! Also I suspect that any supplements take weeks/months to have an effect on haemoglobin.

lfeinsmith Tue Sep 11, 2012 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom30 (Post 25031)
Les and Lulu, can you say what kind of k2 you are taking? I see there are two different types. Vitamin K2 (menaquinone) includes several subtypes; two subtypes most studied are menaquinone-4 (menatetrenone, MK4) and menaquinone-7 (MK7).



menaquinone-7

lfeinsmith Tue Oct 9, 2012 06:46 PM

mk-4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lulu (Post 25045)
Hi Tom, Chirley

I am taking menatetrenone (MK4), as this is what was used in the Japanese research. I started on this stuff from Thorne Research http://www.thorne.com/Products/Vitamins/prd~K170.jsp . Now on tablets http://www.yourhealthbasket.co.uk/in...t_detail&p=664

From what I understand, MK7 is synthesised from gut bacteria, I have just started taking an industrial-strength probiotic called VSL3, which (theoretically, anyhow) should boost MK7.

Unfortunately I am on so many supplements it is hard to tell what is/isn't working, and it is all rather expensive! Also I suspect that any supplements take weeks/months to have an effect on haemoglobin.


do you have the reference mk-4 and japanese literature

teo Mon Oct 15, 2012 05:16 AM

MDS patient with high iron overload
 
Hi all,

Just wondering can a MDS patient with high iron overload consume Vitamin K2 and VD3 ? Please kindly advice. Thanx.

Birgitta-A Mon Oct 15, 2012 06:09 AM

Vitamin K2 + D3
 
Hi Teo,
I suppose you have seen this abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20569983

When I googled the vitamins for adverse effects I couldn't find anything for the doses they are using in this report.
Kind regards
Birgitta-A

teo Mon Oct 15, 2012 08:31 AM

Hi Birgitta-A,

Thanx for the link. Yeah i saw that when i searched on the pubmed website.

I am not sure whether the vitamins were good to be consumed by iron overload patients or not as it was not mentioned. Actually what i saw at the below links that the results of consuming the vitamin K2 showed improvement on the HB.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11925874 (45mg daily MK4 and D3 - No adverse effect of vitamin K2 was observed)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10641439 (45mg daily)

Seems like 45mg daily is the recommended dosage :). I will consult the hematologist to find out as well. If possible, maybe my mom can try with only K2 first.

Marlene Mon Oct 15, 2012 09:14 AM

Teo,

There should not be any issue with Vit D and K2 with iron overload. John's been on both in addition to other anti-oxidants. The one you need to watch is when you start chelation. That is vitamin C. I wouldn't use it when first starting chelation. Eventually, you can add it in. You shouldn't exceed 250 mg.

teo Mon Oct 15, 2012 09:47 AM

Hi Marlene,
Thanx for the good info about Vit D and K2.

Yeah i read some where that we need to be careful about vitamin C when started the Chelation therapy. Thanx for the advice.

tytd Mon Oct 15, 2012 05:59 PM

Vit K + D
 
Hello LeslieS, I wondered if you could report if your platelet count was still up on the combination vitamen therapy and perhaps which brand you were taking? Do you know which brand that the Japanese researchers used? I am always a little wary about products which are not FDA regulated. Thanks and hope you are doing well. tytd

lfeinsmith Mon Oct 15, 2012 07:32 PM

my response
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tytd (Post 25576)
Hello LeslieS, I wondered if you could report if your platelet count was still up on the combination vitamen therapy and perhaps which brand you were taking? Do you know which brand that the Japanese researchers used? I am always a little wary about products which are not FDA regulated. Thanks and hope you are doing well. tytd

My initial response was pretty dramatic 30k to 47 k
then i had skin infection and counts dropped back to original values.
In the article from tokyo university they DO NOT DISCUSS IF IT WAS THE K4 OR K7 VARIANT .i EMAILED THE MD ABOUT THAT AND HAVE NOT HAD AN ANSWER

Chirley Mon Oct 15, 2012 07:37 PM

I read an abstract that seemed to indicate that Vit K and K2 MK7 had more of an effect on platelets than MK4.

Unfortunately I had my professional access to full text articles withdrawn when I had to stop working.

Regards

Chirley

lfeinsmith Mon Oct 15, 2012 07:46 PM

K2/D3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cme01 (Post 25033)
I'd be interested too. I could only access MK4 but I read somewhere that MK7 is more effective.

Chirley

IN THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE THERE WAS NO MENTION OFWHETHER IT WAS THE 4 OR 7 VARIANT

Chirley Mon Oct 15, 2012 09:31 PM

LeslieS

Are you yelling at me? Have I offended you? Please let me know.

Regards

Chirley

tom30 Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:25 AM

I started taking k2 and d3 60 days ago only other supplement I also take is b12. My last blood test was slightly better than usual my platelets and wbc are on the low side my HBC and RBC has been ok for the last 2 yrs.

For what it's worth my HBG and RBC hit a high for the last 4 yrs they have increased from hbg 12 and rbc 3.5 to a recent trend of hbg 14 and rbc 4 but the 12/12 blood test was 16.2 hgb and 4.67 rbc. The platelets started at 70 4yrs ago and recent trend between 80-90 but the latest was 95 which is a high. The wbc baseline was 2.1 and recently around 3-3.5 was at 3.4 on the 12/12 lab. Along with the k2 and D3 I also eliminated grain from my diet around the same time. My doctor does not have an issue with the d2 and k2 supplementation.

the k2 i use- http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ls_o01_s00_i01

the d3 - http://www.amazon.com/Kirkland-Signa.../dp/B002RL8FE8

Birgitta-A Sat Dec 15, 2012 03:40 PM

D3 and K2
 
Very interesting Tom - I have tried those vitamins since Oct but no results yet.
Kind regards
Birgitta-A

lfeinsmith Fri Jan 18, 2013 03:00 PM

vitamin k2/vitamin d
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tytd (Post 25576)
Hello LeslieS, I wondered if you could report if your platelet count was still up on the combination vitamen therapy and perhaps which brand you were taking? Do you know which brand that the Japanese researchers used? I am always a little wary about products which are not FDA regulated. Thanks and hope you are doing well. tytd

after initial response to 40-45 000 it went back to low 30's .I'm still taking it

tom30 Mon Feb 4, 2013 10:54 PM

An update - still taking K2 D3 and B12 along with a no grain paleo diet- went to my regular today for unrelated issue and had blood work run. RBC 4.43, HGB 15.5, WBC 2.5, PLT 100, MCV 103. RBC is my second best and plt a high, wbc is on the low side and my mcv is usually 5points lower. I plan on sticking with this for now. For what it's worth... I've been on a autoimmune paleo diet since mid dec which eliminates grains, beans, nighshade vegetables, dairy, processed foods. I'm almost there 100% except for the dairy. So I'm eating a lot of organic - vegetables, poultry. wild fish, eggs, fruit, some meat, nuts.

Birgitta-A Tue Feb 5, 2013 02:03 PM

Vit D3 and K2
 
Hi Tom,
Very good counts except the WBC that could be a little higher!

I am still taking D3 (alfacalcidol as in the abstract fron Japan) and K2 (MK-4 as in the study). My platelets has been as high as 116 (best since dx 2006) but HGB and WBC are slowly decreasing because Thalidomide is not effective after 32 months (median response time 9 months).

In March I will probably try Revlimid that hopefully will have effect.
Kind regards
Birgitta-A


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